It’s incredibly reductive to reduce this question to one of money. The alliances built post-war have led to a respite from history, devoid of great power conflict. Who wants Europe to go back to the centuries prior? How soon people forget how that turned out, and the price we paid in blood and treasure. The alliances also led to the US building the most dominant economy in human history. Our dominance continues today for anyone willing to look at the data, and yes, I understand we continue to have economic challenges, we always will. I wish it was only about money, but Don and JD are literally switching sides. They’ve sided openly with the butcher in Moscow, read their statements. At least they’re transparent. As for me, I’ll side with the democracies. This isn’t a conservative movement by Don, it’s an authoritarian movement with two pillars-destruction of the western alliances, and destruction of the civil service at home. It’s not a new playbook, read some history. It’s a Putin wet dream. As for JD as the messenger, it’s amazing to me Oren believes anything this guy says. Look at his statements on Don, before he self-gelded. Look at his gaslighting of North Carolina hurricane victims during the campaign, exploiting the least among us at a time they’d lost everything. Or his insipid Haitian debacle. He’s a bad human being, does anyone actually read his comments? Whatever happened to honesty, integrity, character, and truth-telling in our public officials?
If Russia wins due to Trump withdrawing US support for Ukraine, that will embolden Russia, China and other bad actors around the world. The resulting “rule of the jungle” would be very bad for global stability and for the US.
The global world order since 1945 is largely a US creation. This was not some altruistic charity project by the US. The US has benefited enormously from the resulting peace and prosperity.
While Europe definitely should be picking up a larger share of the cost of its own defence, it would be foolish and self-defeating for the US to abandon Ukraine to Putin’s predations.
Stop this madness. These weak corrupt men are siding with Russia. This isn’t tough love. Shameful that Oren Cass keeps trying to make this something it isn’t because deep down he knows he can’t defend these pro authoritarian clowns. So he engages in magical thinking just like the rest of the cowards.
I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding about how we got into this position. The United States asked for and received the position of defender of Europe. We put in the money, we put in the troops. We got the benefits. That’s all well and goo. But now that we want to change things. Blaming the Europeans for taking what we gave them seems a little disingenuous. We have been a drug dealer, offering generous samples. Now that they’re addicted we are blaming the problem on them. A more realistic way to deal with our change of heart would be to give them a schedule with a deadline, not a slap in the face.
In the end it may not matter. My belief is Europe will rise to the challenge, but we will have damaged ourselves enormously. Thoughtless people creating thoughtless outcomes.
Perhaps most rich is JD lecturing Romania on election integrity. This from a guy who openly lies about the 2020 election, and now says he would not have certified the election, as Pence thankfully did. Anyone who promotes the big lie, the worst act ever committed by a US president, is unfit for office. Shame on him. Only a decadent nation would fail to see what the post war alliance has provided us. Travel the world and your opinion may change.
When it comes to defending Ukraine, it becomes a question of defending a corrupt regime against a worse one. The only principle worth defending is not allowing a power to expand by force. NATO IS expanding and Russia feels threatened. But NATO is expanding by peaceful means, mostly by the promise of prosperity, but also, by promising protection from Russian expansion. Russian desire for expansion has been a constant from the 18 th century, if not earlier
You’re spot on Jay. It’s the elites who are letting us down. History has always produced demagogues like Don, but I was naive enough to think they couldn’t find purchase here. I thought the parties, intellectuals, business leaders etc would have the spine to stand up and tell the truth. I’m tired of the whataboutism, or treating this like it’s just another normal political argument. It’s not an accident that the power ministries (justice, military, law enforcement, intelligence) are now headed by unqualified loyalists. It’s not an accident Don is breaking alliances with western democracies in favor of authoritarian regimes. And anyone who thinks DOGE is about efficiency, given the sliver of the budget personnel represents, is smokin some good stuff-it’s about breaking the professional civil service built up over a century and seizing power. It’s time for elites like Oren, who know the truth, to do their part and speak out. Good luck America.
Well Musk thinks DOGE is about efficiency. Yes, conservatives think that public money going to support Democrat pet projects, by calling them charities, is waste and fraud. EG Democrats have maneuvered over $1 billion per year into Abortions Are Us, ( aka Planned Parenthood) but organizations to help pregnant women not suffer an abortion are privately supported. There are dozens of examples. The asymmetry is staggering, but oblivious to you, because you think only your side deserves support.
That said it’s quite ridiculous that JD Vance put this on a par with Russia in terms of free speech.
Irrespective of the debate over European military funding (much of which has benefited the US through purchase of US weapons, whereas not very much the other way round) it’s very strange that Trump is so aligned with Putin to the extent that he has given away all of the negotiating cards he might have had in advance to Putin, lessening the chance of getting a sustainable peace in Ukraine and seemingly giving Putin everything he wants.
When it comes to European defense it comes down to one player, and one player only: Russia, and prior, the Soviet Union. Trump is easy to play and Putin is besting the EU on that front. The easiest and fastest way for the EU to increase its defenses? Pay Trump/US to keep his/US forces in Europe. That’s a deal he couldn’t resist.
Oren, England is one of the most manipulative countries in the world. Have been for centuries. They start more crap over there. Europeans are like most of the world, all these past hatreds for each other. Russia the threat? they will ALL soon be at each other's throats again like always. They want to blame it on religion? Well, they have no real religion anymore, it was too barbaric they said. We'll see how that works out too. Now that we aren't spoon feeding them again as we have for the last 60-70 years. Their liberal left especially live in la la land as they have been protected for the last 70 years.
Aristocrats run the continent and Britian. Aristocrats don't work, never have for centuries, and they live in a completely different world than the rest of us. They have no idea how things really work. In fact, to the aristocratic elites we are morons and need to be led. They are the answer they say. We are too stupid to run things. They actually just laugh and mook us. Serious, they do.
And England will be right in the middle of it.
We need to do as our old ancestors did when they left Europe and England and just leave them behind. Don't want your problems and not to be dragged into their wars and hatreds for each other.
We start making stuff here again and do peace thru strength. If you want to be fair to us and treat us right, we will be your friend. If not, then stay away. We are done giving the farm away.
They want to support Ukraine. Go for it, knock yourselves out.
Keep up the great work Oren, your conversations are right where the republican party needs to be going if they want to stay relevant and a party for the future. Would love to see the republicans support working people. Wow what a switch.
Allowing Europe to have free healthcare and other social benefits denied to our citizens because we provide their defense is beyond stupid and is ending no matter what anyone thinks.
Paying for the defense of Europe. Here’s the math. EU’s GDP is $19T. Russia’s is $2T. If the EU spent 3% of GDP on defense that would total $570B. If Russia tried to match that effort it would take 28% of their output. Obviously impossible. Europe can easily defend itself.
The assurance that Jelensky was seeking in the infamous White House meeting is that we will send in our troops if Putin breaches the agreement. No American president including Trump and Biden would or could give him that assurance because it’s a de facto NATO membership. People don’t seem to understand what is being negotiated. We have no idea if Putin will stick to any agreement he makes (and he is not to be trusted) so we can’t commit to an armed response by our troops due to his perfidy. We can only say that if it does happen we will continue to supply weapons and ammunition to Ukraine.
It is a very difficult time for our nation where most now have no experience of military service and no desire that their children or grandchildren ever have that experience and yet are forced to struggle with our relationship to an ongoing European war. I have nothing but contempt for those who urge us to support a war with no intention to actually ever have to suffer from the consequences of their urging.
The problem in the EU/UK is the utter failure of the conservatives. The Tories aren't as embarrassing as the CDU but it is close. I know nothing of your discussion partner but if he still identifies with the Conservatives that is a problem. The US would be in a similar place if Trump hadn't broken the Bushes.
It’s incredibly reductive to reduce this question to one of money. The alliances built post-war have led to a respite from history, devoid of great power conflict. Who wants Europe to go back to the centuries prior? How soon people forget how that turned out, and the price we paid in blood and treasure. The alliances also led to the US building the most dominant economy in human history. Our dominance continues today for anyone willing to look at the data, and yes, I understand we continue to have economic challenges, we always will. I wish it was only about money, but Don and JD are literally switching sides. They’ve sided openly with the butcher in Moscow, read their statements. At least they’re transparent. As for me, I’ll side with the democracies. This isn’t a conservative movement by Don, it’s an authoritarian movement with two pillars-destruction of the western alliances, and destruction of the civil service at home. It’s not a new playbook, read some history. It’s a Putin wet dream. As for JD as the messenger, it’s amazing to me Oren believes anything this guy says. Look at his statements on Don, before he self-gelded. Look at his gaslighting of North Carolina hurricane victims during the campaign, exploiting the least among us at a time they’d lost everything. Or his insipid Haitian debacle. He’s a bad human being, does anyone actually read his comments? Whatever happened to honesty, integrity, character, and truth-telling in our public officials?
If Russia wins due to Trump withdrawing US support for Ukraine, that will embolden Russia, China and other bad actors around the world. The resulting “rule of the jungle” would be very bad for global stability and for the US.
The global world order since 1945 is largely a US creation. This was not some altruistic charity project by the US. The US has benefited enormously from the resulting peace and prosperity.
While Europe definitely should be picking up a larger share of the cost of its own defence, it would be foolish and self-defeating for the US to abandon Ukraine to Putin’s predations.
Stop this madness. These weak corrupt men are siding with Russia. This isn’t tough love. Shameful that Oren Cass keeps trying to make this something it isn’t because deep down he knows he can’t defend these pro authoritarian clowns. So he engages in magical thinking just like the rest of the cowards.
I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding about how we got into this position. The United States asked for and received the position of defender of Europe. We put in the money, we put in the troops. We got the benefits. That’s all well and goo. But now that we want to change things. Blaming the Europeans for taking what we gave them seems a little disingenuous. We have been a drug dealer, offering generous samples. Now that they’re addicted we are blaming the problem on them. A more realistic way to deal with our change of heart would be to give them a schedule with a deadline, not a slap in the face.
In the end it may not matter. My belief is Europe will rise to the challenge, but we will have damaged ourselves enormously. Thoughtless people creating thoughtless outcomes.
Perhaps most rich is JD lecturing Romania on election integrity. This from a guy who openly lies about the 2020 election, and now says he would not have certified the election, as Pence thankfully did. Anyone who promotes the big lie, the worst act ever committed by a US president, is unfit for office. Shame on him. Only a decadent nation would fail to see what the post war alliance has provided us. Travel the world and your opinion may change.
When it comes to defending Ukraine, it becomes a question of defending a corrupt regime against a worse one. The only principle worth defending is not allowing a power to expand by force. NATO IS expanding and Russia feels threatened. But NATO is expanding by peaceful means, mostly by the promise of prosperity, but also, by promising protection from Russian expansion. Russian desire for expansion has been a constant from the 18 th century, if not earlier
You’re spot on Jay. It’s the elites who are letting us down. History has always produced demagogues like Don, but I was naive enough to think they couldn’t find purchase here. I thought the parties, intellectuals, business leaders etc would have the spine to stand up and tell the truth. I’m tired of the whataboutism, or treating this like it’s just another normal political argument. It’s not an accident that the power ministries (justice, military, law enforcement, intelligence) are now headed by unqualified loyalists. It’s not an accident Don is breaking alliances with western democracies in favor of authoritarian regimes. And anyone who thinks DOGE is about efficiency, given the sliver of the budget personnel represents, is smokin some good stuff-it’s about breaking the professional civil service built up over a century and seizing power. It’s time for elites like Oren, who know the truth, to do their part and speak out. Good luck America.
Well Musk thinks DOGE is about efficiency. Yes, conservatives think that public money going to support Democrat pet projects, by calling them charities, is waste and fraud. EG Democrats have maneuvered over $1 billion per year into Abortions Are Us, ( aka Planned Parenthood) but organizations to help pregnant women not suffer an abortion are privately supported. There are dozens of examples. The asymmetry is staggering, but oblivious to you, because you think only your side deserves support.
Re: intimidation/ protesting (choose as you wish) outside abortion clinics in the UK - Interesting that Michael Gove now seems to oppose the 2023 Public Order Act that he and his Conservative government introduced: https://www.theyworkforyou.com/divisions/pw-2023-06-12-251-commons/mp/24929.
That said it’s quite ridiculous that JD Vance put this on a par with Russia in terms of free speech.
Irrespective of the debate over European military funding (much of which has benefited the US through purchase of US weapons, whereas not very much the other way round) it’s very strange that Trump is so aligned with Putin to the extent that he has given away all of the negotiating cards he might have had in advance to Putin, lessening the chance of getting a sustainable peace in Ukraine and seemingly giving Putin everything he wants.
When it comes to European defense it comes down to one player, and one player only: Russia, and prior, the Soviet Union. Trump is easy to play and Putin is besting the EU on that front. The easiest and fastest way for the EU to increase its defenses? Pay Trump/US to keep his/US forces in Europe. That’s a deal he couldn’t resist.
Oren, England is one of the most manipulative countries in the world. Have been for centuries. They start more crap over there. Europeans are like most of the world, all these past hatreds for each other. Russia the threat? they will ALL soon be at each other's throats again like always. They want to blame it on religion? Well, they have no real religion anymore, it was too barbaric they said. We'll see how that works out too. Now that we aren't spoon feeding them again as we have for the last 60-70 years. Their liberal left especially live in la la land as they have been protected for the last 70 years.
Aristocrats run the continent and Britian. Aristocrats don't work, never have for centuries, and they live in a completely different world than the rest of us. They have no idea how things really work. In fact, to the aristocratic elites we are morons and need to be led. They are the answer they say. We are too stupid to run things. They actually just laugh and mook us. Serious, they do.
And England will be right in the middle of it.
We need to do as our old ancestors did when they left Europe and England and just leave them behind. Don't want your problems and not to be dragged into their wars and hatreds for each other.
We start making stuff here again and do peace thru strength. If you want to be fair to us and treat us right, we will be your friend. If not, then stay away. We are done giving the farm away.
They want to support Ukraine. Go for it, knock yourselves out.
Keep up the great work Oren, your conversations are right where the republican party needs to be going if they want to stay relevant and a party for the future. Would love to see the republicans support working people. Wow what a switch.
Allowing Europe to have free healthcare and other social benefits denied to our citizens because we provide their defense is beyond stupid and is ending no matter what anyone thinks.
Paying for the defense of Europe. Here’s the math. EU’s GDP is $19T. Russia’s is $2T. If the EU spent 3% of GDP on defense that would total $570B. If Russia tried to match that effort it would take 28% of their output. Obviously impossible. Europe can easily defend itself.
The assurance that Jelensky was seeking in the infamous White House meeting is that we will send in our troops if Putin breaches the agreement. No American president including Trump and Biden would or could give him that assurance because it’s a de facto NATO membership. People don’t seem to understand what is being negotiated. We have no idea if Putin will stick to any agreement he makes (and he is not to be trusted) so we can’t commit to an armed response by our troops due to his perfidy. We can only say that if it does happen we will continue to supply weapons and ammunition to Ukraine.
It is a very difficult time for our nation where most now have no experience of military service and no desire that their children or grandchildren ever have that experience and yet are forced to struggle with our relationship to an ongoing European war. I have nothing but contempt for those who urge us to support a war with no intention to actually ever have to suffer from the consequences of their urging.
The problem in the EU/UK is the utter failure of the conservatives. The Tories aren't as embarrassing as the CDU but it is close. I know nothing of your discussion partner but if he still identifies with the Conservatives that is a problem. The US would be in a similar place if Trump hadn't broken the Bushes.